I went to one of these gatherings for many years. When trans identified men insisted that we should welcome them, I thought then (and still think now) that their insistence was based on a need for us to validate their womanhood. Which I, and many of my sisters, will not do. We fought too hard for these spaces, and for so many of us, this is the hill we will die on.
Yes of course they wanted our validation. But more accurately, they wanted to dominate and usurp us.
One of the men who invaded Michigan was Dana Rivers, a well-known California trans activist, who was convicted in 2023 of murdering two lesbians and their son in their beds as they slept.
And where is he serving his life sentence? The Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla.
So interesting. Thank you, Elle. I visited several women's lands in the seventies and eighties. One in New Mexico was co-owned by a good friend. What they did there was lesbian-centric and -celebratory but mostly it was about love of nature: gardening, raising animals, chopping wood to heat self-built homes. They were physically and spiritually strong women - a small clan of six to twelve, plus visitors - and it lasted for decades, adjacent to "regular" men's lands who came to respect them and grant them the space they (we) deserve. We swam naked in a river, walked around topless, laughed, danced, played music, created and enacted meaningful rituals, and felt free to love and to be ourselves.
Another land I visited in the midwest was much larger in population and then co-owned by a one-breasted woman, post-cancer surgery. She, too, walked around topless, as did visitors, whom they welcomed and generously fed. I still have photos of smiling, sun-drenched, naked women.
I also attended the Yosemite Women's Music Festival (the west coast version of the more well known Michigan one) many times. There, we began to feel the intrusion of trans-identified men who showed up, tried to bully their way in, and met with strong resistance from most if not all of us. Again, being naked or in any state of clothing we desired - without fear or judgment - was one of many pleasures; the last thing we wanted was to encounter male bodies or aggressive, threatening male energy. We held firm, as I recall, and rules were written about "women-born-women" but it didn't last forever and perhaps that conflict was part of its demise.
As a lesbian elder myself now, I appreciate this virtual space to reminisce.
See also: The Disappearing L: Erasure of Lesbian Spaces and Culture (SUNY series in Queer Politics and Cultures) and Eden Built by Eves: The Culture of Women's Music Festivals, both by Bonnie Morris, women's studies professor
Three of us lesbians read this together and were moved to tears by your words, Elle. We are thinking of all the women and lesbians with whom we want to share your beautiful and wise words. Thank you for listening to and honoring elders. We all have so much to learn from one another ♥️♥️♥️♥️
Thank you Elle for sharing how your critical thinking skills have blossomed enough to gain you entry to a supportive sisterhood. That woman who rang you to break the silence was brave and trusting enough to reach out to you. Similar underground lesbian communities exist around the world, eg in Australia where I live. I’m past my mid-70s and your story brought me to tears, too, tears of grief for you and so many other lesbians who have been missing out on connection while in your queer communities, tears of joy that you have found your lesbian home and broken the patriarchal ties. And the women’s land communities you have met are to be commended for trusting enough to maintain open discussion and debate while taking safety precautions. Looking out for each other and building trust were valuable and valued gifts gift I received and learned back in the 80s from lesbian feminists. We need new generations in order to pass the message on, the traditions built over many years, women’s loving energy for each other. Go well. If in doubt, follow Mary Daly’s advice and Be BOLD!
The Substack algorithm led me to you, and I was delighted to read your article. I came out in 1971 and was there during the early years of the evolving lesbian community. Not that we invented it in the 70s, because when I came out there was already a thriving lesbian and gay community where the sexes interacted in a friendly way while still retaining our own social outlets in lesbian bars and house parties.
But we dykes got busy pretty quickly, creating literary and political magazines, clubs, tarot cards(!), spiritual movements, and record labels. And we evolved our politics, which were hardcore and largely informed by feminism.
The music festivals were very important because we were able to do our thing without interference from men. I went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival several times and it was always a peak experience. Walking around in nature with hundreds of naked lesbians without a hint of danger or stress, was life-altering (straight women who wanted a day off came too, by the way). For the first time in my life I experienced a sense of absolute safety, and most importantly, A COMPLETE ABSENCE OF SHAME. Nobody was judged or judging. We all looked the same and unique. The infinite sizes and shapes of our bodies were all equally acceptable and breathtakingly beautiful.
It's hard to put into words, because so much time as passed, but Michigan gave me an inkling of what was possible. It didn't last in that context, but it's wonderful to know that dykes have been keeping women's land alive. I know it exists, but I've never visited. Your article is inspiring me to consider it.
If you haven't read Eva Kurilova here on Substack, I recommend her highly. She's a lesbian and a historian, and she's documented those years and how trans ideology destroyed Michigan, with the help of a trans-identified woman, Leslie Feinberg, author of "Stone Butch Blues." Yes, Leslie opened the gates, literally, and let the men in.
So sad. But Michigan and the other women's festivals around the country were the test cases for the benefits of women-only spaces, and they were fabulous. Also, lots of superb music came out of those years: Meg Christian, Cris Williamson, Linda Tillery, Barbara Higbie and Teresa Trull, Sweet Honey in the Rock, Holly Near...and so many others.
In the spirit of sentimentality and the honoring of our fore mothers, I'll close with a lesbian separatist anthem written and performed by one of the greats from back in the day, the wonderful Alix Dobkin (1940-2021). It's quite catchy. Feel free to sing along.
Your story about the young women trying to convince the older women to let men in. What did these young women say to the question, why can’t those women who want private spaces have them and the women who want to include men have their own to?
Why do men always have to be included in everything?
In my understanding, it seemed like a complete clash of worldviews. These younger women seemed to believe that differentiating men from women on the basis of sex was a white supremacist/colonial “tool”. There was a lot of race issues woven into it, and one of these younger women (who was a woman of color) said that she was more afraid of white women than she was of males. So the questions you are asking there were certainly not answered. The two parties are just…so far apart, ideologically. Tough to communicate effectively.
In the mid-70s in Buffalo, NY, we had our first trans-identified man demand access to our lesbian social group. Out of a group of about 30 women, only myself and one other woman (I don't know who she was), voted "no." Some of the women in our group were university based, but not all. I wasn't. Many were working class women who were not affiliated with the university. We had a discussion before voting, and I was literally the only person who spoke up against him. Justifications for admitting him were things like: "he's just one guy, what can it hurt?"
My theory is that we lesbians suffered constant homophobia in Buffalo at that time, and the women felt sorry for him. They identified with him as an outsider who was being shunned and they wanted to be kind. He had been in the news because he was a businessman with a family, and his public announcement had produced a big backlash. Race politics was not explicitly on the table yet, as far as I know, but I wasn't university educated.
I didn't know gatherings like this still existed -- I am glad to find I was wrong. Do you know if there are any in the UK? (Not asking for specific details, just if anyone is aware of any!)
Thanks for this look into L-culture today. I don’t get out much these days but I remember: the Women’s Music Festival (coincident with the ERA vote), Women’s March (after tRump’s win). Heck, since I was working in D.C. I even checked out the Million Man March a few blocks away. At a point they wouldn’t let me in, after even mentioning I sometimes get taken for a man? Getting stopped was OK I guess (not that interested 🤷♀️). Truth be told it was the smallest crowd I’ve ever seen. ~25k (versus 800k for Obama, 500k for the Women’s March, etc.) Men not fabulously interested in solidarity?
Not a nudist, either (very shy with pendulous, floppy boobs 😔 ). Don’t forget the solitary stuff (alone with nature). Like: Upper Michigan, Lake Superior, Sault Saint Marie Michigan, all lovely! It’s a very quiet place, probably still? Outer Banks? A place near you!
so interesting! just curious if i'm understanding correctly, there were women at this event who were arguing for the inclusion of trans women? how did this work with security, that seems like a big risk!
It's a large community of women with many different opinions and ideas. As far as I know, there was no security involved. It was simply a discussion where women were sharing their thoughts about the issue.
fascinating! I thought there was screening involved for female-only spaces such as these, so it seemed to me like having women present who oppose female-only spaces would be a risk, like, isn't that the whole reason these events are underground?
I'm not involved in the organizing of the event, so I can't speak to the specific screening process. Personally, I did have to have someone vouch for me to get on the email lists and such. As for this specific discussion, some women were simply sharing that they wouldn't mind trans women in the space, not that they necessarily oppose female space. As far as I know, there is a lot of effort in this specific community to involve younger women, even if there is disagreement that arises. It's a community that has always welcomed diversity of thought and has attempted to solve issues through discussion and consensus. Myself and some other women spoke up in this discussion about how much we wanted the space to remain female, and as far as I know that is the general consensus at this time.
Yes, my experience is similar, where in some female only spaces there is agreement to keep *that* space female only, but that doesn’t mean that there won’t be females who push those boundaries in the name of “inclusivity.”
I'm male so I hope you don't mind me commenting, but I found this essay moving and thoughtful. I'm 69 and had not payed much attention to the whole gender ideology mess until the last couple years after retiring. While I find many aspects of the whole project troubling, especially matters related to foregoing reality of biology, I find discussions like these distressing in terms of what all of you are facing. Hopefully you can successfully maintain your spaces.
I agree with Jeff here. I learnt how women needed their own spaces back in the 80s from my mother who was at Greenham Common and my punk rock feminist pals. I'm so depressed by what is happening now, a huge step backwards.
I read this beautiful piece and I hope there are as many places for you as men’s lands. I have been to many and it’s an enormous pleasure to get away from transactional gay and have the feeling of being surrounded by men exactly as you evoked with women.
I went to one of these gatherings for many years. When trans identified men insisted that we should welcome them, I thought then (and still think now) that their insistence was based on a need for us to validate their womanhood. Which I, and many of my sisters, will not do. We fought too hard for these spaces, and for so many of us, this is the hill we will die on.
Yes of course they wanted our validation. But more accurately, they wanted to dominate and usurp us.
One of the men who invaded Michigan was Dana Rivers, a well-known California trans activist, who was convicted in 2023 of murdering two lesbians and their son in their beds as they slept.
And where is he serving his life sentence? The Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla.
https://reduxx.info/breaking-trans-activist-sent-to-womens-prison-to-serve-life-sentence-for-slaughter-of-california-family/
Oh my god. Not heard about this before. The world has gone mad.
Not @ all unusual, Rowling tweeted about it April 1.
So interesting. Thank you, Elle. I visited several women's lands in the seventies and eighties. One in New Mexico was co-owned by a good friend. What they did there was lesbian-centric and -celebratory but mostly it was about love of nature: gardening, raising animals, chopping wood to heat self-built homes. They were physically and spiritually strong women - a small clan of six to twelve, plus visitors - and it lasted for decades, adjacent to "regular" men's lands who came to respect them and grant them the space they (we) deserve. We swam naked in a river, walked around topless, laughed, danced, played music, created and enacted meaningful rituals, and felt free to love and to be ourselves.
Another land I visited in the midwest was much larger in population and then co-owned by a one-breasted woman, post-cancer surgery. She, too, walked around topless, as did visitors, whom they welcomed and generously fed. I still have photos of smiling, sun-drenched, naked women.
I also attended the Yosemite Women's Music Festival (the west coast version of the more well known Michigan one) many times. There, we began to feel the intrusion of trans-identified men who showed up, tried to bully their way in, and met with strong resistance from most if not all of us. Again, being naked or in any state of clothing we desired - without fear or judgment - was one of many pleasures; the last thing we wanted was to encounter male bodies or aggressive, threatening male energy. We held firm, as I recall, and rules were written about "women-born-women" but it didn't last forever and perhaps that conflict was part of its demise.
As a lesbian elder myself now, I appreciate this virtual space to reminisce.
See also: The Disappearing L: Erasure of Lesbian Spaces and Culture (SUNY series in Queer Politics and Cultures) and Eden Built by Eves: The Culture of Women's Music Festivals, both by Bonnie Morris, women's studies professor
Three of us lesbians read this together and were moved to tears by your words, Elle. We are thinking of all the women and lesbians with whom we want to share your beautiful and wise words. Thank you for listening to and honoring elders. We all have so much to learn from one another ♥️♥️♥️♥️
Thank you for reading! I am so glad my words made an impact <3 Much love!
Thank you Elle for sharing how your critical thinking skills have blossomed enough to gain you entry to a supportive sisterhood. That woman who rang you to break the silence was brave and trusting enough to reach out to you. Similar underground lesbian communities exist around the world, eg in Australia where I live. I’m past my mid-70s and your story brought me to tears, too, tears of grief for you and so many other lesbians who have been missing out on connection while in your queer communities, tears of joy that you have found your lesbian home and broken the patriarchal ties. And the women’s land communities you have met are to be commended for trusting enough to maintain open discussion and debate while taking safety precautions. Looking out for each other and building trust were valuable and valued gifts gift I received and learned back in the 80s from lesbian feminists. We need new generations in order to pass the message on, the traditions built over many years, women’s loving energy for each other. Go well. If in doubt, follow Mary Daly’s advice and Be BOLD!
The Substack algorithm led me to you, and I was delighted to read your article. I came out in 1971 and was there during the early years of the evolving lesbian community. Not that we invented it in the 70s, because when I came out there was already a thriving lesbian and gay community where the sexes interacted in a friendly way while still retaining our own social outlets in lesbian bars and house parties.
But we dykes got busy pretty quickly, creating literary and political magazines, clubs, tarot cards(!), spiritual movements, and record labels. And we evolved our politics, which were hardcore and largely informed by feminism.
The music festivals were very important because we were able to do our thing without interference from men. I went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival several times and it was always a peak experience. Walking around in nature with hundreds of naked lesbians without a hint of danger or stress, was life-altering (straight women who wanted a day off came too, by the way). For the first time in my life I experienced a sense of absolute safety, and most importantly, A COMPLETE ABSENCE OF SHAME. Nobody was judged or judging. We all looked the same and unique. The infinite sizes and shapes of our bodies were all equally acceptable and breathtakingly beautiful.
It's hard to put into words, because so much time as passed, but Michigan gave me an inkling of what was possible. It didn't last in that context, but it's wonderful to know that dykes have been keeping women's land alive. I know it exists, but I've never visited. Your article is inspiring me to consider it.
If you haven't read Eva Kurilova here on Substack, I recommend her highly. She's a lesbian and a historian, and she's documented those years and how trans ideology destroyed Michigan, with the help of a trans-identified woman, Leslie Feinberg, author of "Stone Butch Blues." Yes, Leslie opened the gates, literally, and let the men in.
So sad. But Michigan and the other women's festivals around the country were the test cases for the benefits of women-only spaces, and they were fabulous. Also, lots of superb music came out of those years: Meg Christian, Cris Williamson, Linda Tillery, Barbara Higbie and Teresa Trull, Sweet Honey in the Rock, Holly Near...and so many others.
In the spirit of sentimentality and the honoring of our fore mothers, I'll close with a lesbian separatist anthem written and performed by one of the greats from back in the day, the wonderful Alix Dobkin (1940-2021). It's quite catchy. Feel free to sing along.
(Geez, I'm old.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjzs_x5bPiA
This made my day. How beautiful. I hope these women’s lands exist in other parts of the world too. I hope to find one, one day ❤️🙏🏾
Your story about the young women trying to convince the older women to let men in. What did these young women say to the question, why can’t those women who want private spaces have them and the women who want to include men have their own to?
Why do men always have to be included in everything?
In my understanding, it seemed like a complete clash of worldviews. These younger women seemed to believe that differentiating men from women on the basis of sex was a white supremacist/colonial “tool”. There was a lot of race issues woven into it, and one of these younger women (who was a woman of color) said that she was more afraid of white women than she was of males. So the questions you are asking there were certainly not answered. The two parties are just…so far apart, ideologically. Tough to communicate effectively.
Do these women lack world experience? In denial ? Crazy !
I blame academia. Way too much theory, not enough living in the world.
In the mid-70s in Buffalo, NY, we had our first trans-identified man demand access to our lesbian social group. Out of a group of about 30 women, only myself and one other woman (I don't know who she was), voted "no." Some of the women in our group were university based, but not all. I wasn't. Many were working class women who were not affiliated with the university. We had a discussion before voting, and I was literally the only person who spoke up against him. Justifications for admitting him were things like: "he's just one guy, what can it hurt?"
My theory is that we lesbians suffered constant homophobia in Buffalo at that time, and the women felt sorry for him. They identified with him as an outsider who was being shunned and they wanted to be kind. He had been in the news because he was a businessman with a family, and his public announcement had produced a big backlash. Race politics was not explicitly on the table yet, as far as I know, but I wasn't university educated.
This is him: https://medium.com/the-establishment/peggie-ames-draft-d84e4efa8cb4
I didn't know gatherings like this still existed -- I am glad to find I was wrong. Do you know if there are any in the UK? (Not asking for specific details, just if anyone is aware of any!)
LGB Alliance in the UK has been actively creating and supporting their members to organically grow communities in their area. Reach out to them.
Wow! You really got to the essence of the issue! Thank you for your clarity.
Thank you, Joni!
Thanks for this look into L-culture today. I don’t get out much these days but I remember: the Women’s Music Festival (coincident with the ERA vote), Women’s March (after tRump’s win). Heck, since I was working in D.C. I even checked out the Million Man March a few blocks away. At a point they wouldn’t let me in, after even mentioning I sometimes get taken for a man? Getting stopped was OK I guess (not that interested 🤷♀️). Truth be told it was the smallest crowd I’ve ever seen. ~25k (versus 800k for Obama, 500k for the Women’s March, etc.) Men not fabulously interested in solidarity?
Not a nudist, either (very shy with pendulous, floppy boobs 😔 ). Don’t forget the solitary stuff (alone with nature). Like: Upper Michigan, Lake Superior, Sault Saint Marie Michigan, all lovely! It’s a very quiet place, probably still? Outer Banks? A place near you!
First Friday alum. I’m glad to hear that groups like this still exist. How on earth do you get invited! I’m in! Thanks for the great article.
so interesting! just curious if i'm understanding correctly, there were women at this event who were arguing for the inclusion of trans women? how did this work with security, that seems like a big risk!
It's a large community of women with many different opinions and ideas. As far as I know, there was no security involved. It was simply a discussion where women were sharing their thoughts about the issue.
fascinating! I thought there was screening involved for female-only spaces such as these, so it seemed to me like having women present who oppose female-only spaces would be a risk, like, isn't that the whole reason these events are underground?
I'm not involved in the organizing of the event, so I can't speak to the specific screening process. Personally, I did have to have someone vouch for me to get on the email lists and such. As for this specific discussion, some women were simply sharing that they wouldn't mind trans women in the space, not that they necessarily oppose female space. As far as I know, there is a lot of effort in this specific community to involve younger women, even if there is disagreement that arises. It's a community that has always welcomed diversity of thought and has attempted to solve issues through discussion and consensus. Myself and some other women spoke up in this discussion about how much we wanted the space to remain female, and as far as I know that is the general consensus at this time.
Yes, my experience is similar, where in some female only spaces there is agreement to keep *that* space female only, but that doesn’t mean that there won’t be females who push those boundaries in the name of “inclusivity.”
I'm male so I hope you don't mind me commenting, but I found this essay moving and thoughtful. I'm 69 and had not payed much attention to the whole gender ideology mess until the last couple years after retiring. While I find many aspects of the whole project troubling, especially matters related to foregoing reality of biology, I find discussions like these distressing in terms of what all of you are facing. Hopefully you can successfully maintain your spaces.
Thank you for reading!
I agree with Jeff here. I learnt how women needed their own spaces back in the 80s from my mother who was at Greenham Common and my punk rock feminist pals. I'm so depressed by what is happening now, a huge step backwards.
I read this beautiful piece and I hope there are as many places for you as men’s lands. I have been to many and it’s an enormous pleasure to get away from transactional gay and have the feeling of being surrounded by men exactly as you evoked with women.